Does this idea have any merit?

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Emerald
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Does this idea have any merit?

Post by Emerald »

So I was recently linked to the following post on the WotC forums from another forum (copy-pasted below to save you from going to that cesspit):
The essential issue with multi-attacks is the concept of "Action Economy" or "what can I do in a round?". 3.X made inrounds with limiting and defining action economy.Things like swift actions were introduced to expand it. 4E took it a step furhter and hard-defined the action economy into 3 actions per round: A standard, move, and minor. a multiple attack fighter still exists in 4E, but it bound the action economy into a standard action, the multiple attacks come from a power that lists multiple targets.

Note that a standard can be downgraded to a move or minor, and a move can be downgraded to a minor.

I would liketo see the action economy adjusted such that a standard = 3 minor and move = 2 minors. So if you stood still and did nothing else, you could take 2 standard actions on your turn. A 4E type of power could be done with a standard action.

Alternatively you could do 6 minor actions. For the multi-atack fighter type, this might be 6 seperate attacks, similar to a basic attack in 4E with some tweaks to bring it in balance (no str bonus to damage, or 1hp dmg, or perhaps only str damage each hit, etc).

I would think things like immediate actions would be minors as well and you have to "hold on" to one or two if you want to be able to use them before the start of your next turn. So if you want to be able to do a Opportunity attack on a creature if it moves away, you better hold a minor action in reserve.

Minor could be used to move 1/2 your speed value, or perhaps only a shift.

Wizard types should be built with more sustain like powers rather than the old 1E-3E random number of rounds, but also get rid of the 4E "until end of next turn" mechanic. Use a minor to sustain, period.

Things like fireball could be upgraded on the fly. Standard action to cast, use a minor action to increase damage by 1d6, use minor action to increase range by 5 squares, use minor action to increase burst radius by 1. and so on.

by providing more "Action Currency", things that used to be handled by feats (metamagic in 3E e.g.) can be handled by spending the action currency. Leaving feats for more hard-wired customization and/or flavor (upgrading a class feature, or expanding deeper into a theme).

It does have the potential to bog each players turn a bit, but I think you'll feel more able to make "quick" decisions and if it was not ideal, still have enough "currency" to correct.

I can see a fighter/wizard build saying:

"I shift 1 (minor action) to avoid an Opportunity attack from the ogre. I cast Shout (standard action) to stun the ogre and the nearby orcs (rolls made to resolve, ogre is stunned, orcs are not). I move 3 squares ( minor action to move 1/2 speed) and I attempt to bonk the wounded (but not stunned) orc with my mace (minor action for basic attack with mace called "bonk") for 1 point of damage."

I like multi-attack fighters too, but the old iterative but less effective attack paradigm doesn't need to stay. It was a decreasing chance to hit for equal damage. Instead, an equal to hit iterative attack, but lower damage/effectiveness hit is better in that the last few attacks don't seem so hopeless/useless. The net effect of the old model was you would be able to hit low level mooks and waste them with a multi-attack, but if you used it against a single high level target, the others were hail mary's for a crit. Keeping the hit roll high, but the damage dropped allows you to waste low level mooks (low hps) but still be able add damage to the single high level target.
Being able to mx the high damage single attack and a few iterative atacks in a single round in my high "action currency" approach would make the game feel like you have plenty of options to choose from, and ways to react during your turn to a changing battle space.
TL;DR: Split the standard action into 3 minor/swift actions and the move action into 2 minor/swift actions, then use that to make iterative attacks, 5-foot steps/shifting, metamagic, etc. work more elegantly.

On the one hand, I like how this idea incorporates iterative attacks, multiple AoOs, Spring Attack-like move-attack-move mechanics, and such innately. On the other hand, it's bad enough having choices for your standard, move, and swift/minor action on your turn, which can happen in 6 possible orders; dealing with up to 6 individual actions is insanely overcomplicated, even if you discard most of the 720 possible orderings out of hand. I like the idea of making full attacks, Spring Attack, etc. obsolete, but 6 actions per turn just isn't feasible.

So...yeah. I suppose I just wanted to see the Den rip this apart and possibly come up with other alternative move-and-attack/metamagic/whatever systems or say why the current system (either the 3e version or the 4e version) works fine.
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Post by BearsAreBrown »

Analysis paralysis the table to death.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

....

Why not have things go into 1 second costs; with a 6 second round?

Standard actions cost 3 seconds

Move Actions cost 2 seconds

Minor Actions cost 1 second?

then, tactically the game is about an actual noticeable action economy that more people can realize.

Honestly, what you're describing is a problem I was deeply thinking about, finding lots of trouble solving... and only now have realized how simply I could tune things.
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Post by Chamomile »

Rephrasing "minor action" as "one second" doesn't actually solve the problem of option paralysis. This sort of thing will only work if done in conjunction with "you have twenty seconds to do your turn: Go!" Which not every group wants to go with.
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Post by Vebyast »

I kind of sort of tried this once, indirectly. The Speedened gets to do stuff using smaller actions (full attack in a standard action, standard attack in a move action, that kind of thing), effectively giving it an action economy like JE suggests. The Den decided it was workable, but it hasn't been playtested yet.
Last edited by Vebyast on Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

the idea would be that all actions are organized into 3 second, 2 second, 1 second and 0 second options; the numbers make it a bit easier to plan out actions per round, and players can get a lot more flexibility in their choices; a 1st level warrior can stand still, and attack twice; a completely running creature moves 3x it's movement; 50% faster than 'charge' speed; the hard divide into numbers seems more complicated, but players can mentally do the math by looking at their choices.

Using words to organize time wasn't a good thing in 3e. Especially when you had 4 speeds and like 20-30 actions that were normal in the PHB, without using spells.

It's the long lists of useless shit that causes the paralysis.
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Post by Vebyast »

Judging__Eagle wrote:Using words to organize time wasn't a good thing in 3e. Especially when you had 4 speeds and like 20-30 actions that were normal in the PHB, without using spells.
No kidding. I would have just redefined the entire action system, but that would have been too much work for a single class to use it.

I do like your system. Just give characters 6 seconds and issue every action a number of seconds. It has some problems with what DND calls free, swift, and immediate actions, though, unless your "minor" actions are swift action equivalents.
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Post by Chamomile »

Don't call them seconds. Here's why:

Steve the Wizard and an angry orc are a single five foot step away from each other when negotiations go south. Steve wins initiative. He activates some meta-magic thing (1 second), casts a spell (3 seconds), and then moves 20' away from the orc (2 seconds).

Now it's the orc's turn. He takes a five-foot step towards Steve (1 second), then attacks Steve with his giant axe (3 seconds), and then wait, Steve is actually 20' away, even though the attack occurs in the second through fourt seconds of battle and Steve didn't even start moving until the fifth.

You don't get these problems with abstract action points.
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Post by tussock »

So, what, it advocates I can't even take a 5' step and still get a full attack? Uh, no. 4e doesn't need two attacks, it needs half monster hp (or less with further adjustment).

And 6 actions? No. Maybe 4 APs per turn, 3 to act, 1 to shift, 2 to move. Now I can't move and attack, so it needs all sorts of sticky and charge mechanics to let me get a hit in at all with melee, so ... No.

You know what you can do in a turn? Magic, Missile, Move, Melee. In order, must prepare the first two at the end of your last turn. Stop counting seconds and jargoning up the place, just get on and take your turn.
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Post by ModelCitizen »

That's just an action point system. You get 6 AP per round. Instead of Standard/Move/Minor, actions are now tagged as 1, 2, or 3 AP. The problem like Tussock said is that then you're expected to make two attacks per round and the system punishes you for doing anything else.

A better system would give you 7 AP per round. Attacks cost 4, move-equivalents cost 2, minors cost 1. (Note: The 7 AP version only works if any writer who makes a way to gain an 8th AP gets beat with a garden hose.)

I don't think there's any value to this in D&D though. I can only think of two reasons to do it and both of them suck.

Shitty Reason 1: Getting rid of the squares-of-movement sub-economy. Instead of charging a move action and then having each move action move you a variable number of feet, you could have each AP move you one space. This is stupid because it requires you to track movement to enough precision that there's no chance of being able to play without a battlemat.

Shitty Reason 2: Letting Some Asshole take 7 Minor Actions Per Round: This would take too long.
Last edited by ModelCitizen on Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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